Fake trades in GTOB - reportable offense? - Guild Wars Forums

Voodoo Rage · Nov 02, 2010, 10:27 PM // 22:27

I've been noticing a lot of people in the Great Temple of Balthazar who are spamming to buy or sell Ectos or Z-keys at a very good price but then when you open a trade window with them they either ignore you or just close it. They also ignore all PM's despite continuously spamming in the trade window.

Typically you will see a pattern of:

Guy #1: WTB Z-keys - 6k each
Guy #1: WTB Z-keys - 6k each
Guy #1: WTB Z-keys - 6k each
Guy #2: WTS Z-keys - 5.5k each

or vice versa with ecto

They will also do the opposite (trying to drive DOWN the price of an item they want to buy):

Guy #1: WTS Ecto - 6k each
Guy #1: WTS Ecto - 6k each
Guy #1: WTS Ecto - 6k each
Guy #2: WTB Ecto - 6.2k each

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that they are attempting to confuse potential buys or sellers as to the actual going price of the ecto or z-key.

To me, this is something that we should be reporting. Firstly, it's spamming. Clogging the trade channel up with fake trade offers, just drowns out people who are actually trying to buy or sell. Secondly, it's a type of scamming. Utilizing the trade channel to spread misinformation is just a means to attempt to rip someone off. I think it is important in that game that we hold the trade channel to a very high standard. If post a WTB or WTS in the trade channel, you should ACTUALLY BE BUYING OR SELLING not trying to manipulate a price or just get a price check.

Has anyone else noticed this? Do you think it is something that should be addressed?

End · Nov 02, 2010, 10:30 PM // 22:30

most common scam in gw history

But yeah theres really nothing you can do about it...I mean you can report it...but odds are anet won't do anything about it.

Although reminds me of an interesting varient awhile back...of I was selling something...I wanna say it was a high req emerald blade. He had one account spamming WTB Greater Guardian Spear r9 gold 250e (I think that was the item it was a greater something or other). Then his other account pm's me offering his r9 gold greater guardian spear for my emerald blade saying I could trade it to the gent for an easy stack.

novawhiz · Nov 02, 2010, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Theres no such thing as being banned for spamming WTS something you dont have.

And theres no way to prove that they are working together.

And if you buy a Crystal Snowflake for 20e hoping to sell it to someone else for 40e and make a huge profit, but find out its worthless who you going to QQ to?

But know anet, they Ban first, find a reason later, so go for it

Fay Vert · Nov 02, 2010, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Yes it's a scam but I am sure ANet's stance will be that there are bigger problems to spend time on and it's up to the indvidual to know what they are selling/buying. If you can't be bothered to know the price of something in a wider context then you will lose out a little (not a lot).

As for keeping the trade chat clear... Well, first we need a decent trade system, but seeing as we don't have one, who cares?

Meridon · Nov 02, 2010, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Attempting to manipulate a good with a very dynamic market price is hard to ban for. For example, ecto have once been at 6k, so selling them (or even pretending to do so without direct consequence) at that price can't really be illegal.

The thing is, what you are doing goes more towards manipulating the market than scamming. If, by posting enough demand or supply messages for a certain price, you actually get the market to be at that price, you aren't actually scamming the other party.

There is one notable exception to this, and that is when there is a team of two scammers in the same district. One pretending to buy a worthless item (like a green weapon nobody has that's worth 1k) for 50e, and another trying to sell the same item for 10k or so. Someone might just be tempted enough to buy this worthless item for far more than it's worth, only to find the person he wanted to sell it to for a profit missing.

dansamy · Nov 02, 2010, 11:11 PM // 23:11

It's not really a scam. It's market manipulation. It's unethical in-game. It's only illegal IRL. (Stock market manipulating - ask Martha.)

My husband and brother-in-law used to manipulate the market for Captured Son letters. They both made a huge bundle on it. They simply undercut the market to the point where other letter farmers found the rate of return to be too low to be profitable. Their method of farming the letters, even after the "nerf" still allowed them to accumulate massive numbers of letters so that their rate of return remained quite profitable, even at the lower price point that they set for the letter. (Please don't ask me how. I hate tedious farming and didn't pay one lick of attention to their methods.)

Horace Slughorn · Nov 03, 2010, 12:13 AM // 00:13

if you don't know the actual price of an item, you really shouldn't be buying or selling it. so if you fall for one of these scams, it's really your own fault.

Reformed · Nov 03, 2010, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Happens all the time in Kamadan with higher ticket items. Best way to avoid this is to know the market inside and out and if its blatant call them out on their bullshit. Don't ever buy an item in the channel just because you see a profitable WTB somewhere further down...these people aren't blind, they know it's there.

byteme! · Nov 03, 2010, 01:28 AM // 01:28

In a player driven market you can't do squat about it.

Chrisworld · Nov 03, 2010, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Yeah it's an old scam... but when you are in ANY town at ANY time who's to say that when this happens it just so happens to be two people not working together? You can't just blanket ban people who...... oh, wait.

gremlin · Nov 03, 2010, 01:49 AM // 01:49

There is a saying quite an old one Let the Buyer Beware.

In the game just as in real life you shouldn't buy or sell anything without knowing its true value.

The game has done its bit to prevent fraud you get messages if someone tries to substitute one item for another the rest is up to us.

I guess people who do see this going on could start spamming the true price or warning people but that's just more spam and we need less.

ACWhammy · Nov 03, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40

I agree that there are lots of fake advertisers out there. And I agree that it is annoying as well. However I don't consider it scamming and I don't think it's considered a ban-able offense by anet standards and don't think it should be either.

The real scammers are the ones that should be cracked down on and reported. Fake ads are annoying but scamming is worse. (i.e. someone trying to buy 13 ectos for 100k then putting 100g in trade window, or trying to sell and EL tonic then putting a regular tonic in trade window - those examples are considered scamming to me - but it's still up to the buyer/seller to check their items before hitting "accept")

I agree with Horace and gremlin - before buying anything do some research and get a few opinions on the worth of the item. Then figure out if it's worth that much to you; after all, an item is only worth as much as someone would pay for it.

Good luck in your buying and selling,

AC

Ennes X · Nov 03, 2010, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansamy

It's not really a scam. It's market manipulation. It's unethical in-game. It's only illegal IRL. (Stock market manipulating - ask Martha.)

THat is not the same thing. Martha Stewart was involved in insider trading, establishing positions based on information not available to the investing public.

I'm not sure this kind of stuff is illegal in real life. People spread misinformation and rumors about companies all the time, especially around earnings report season or when milestones are approaching. People will even throw money at the market, actually spending the money to buy and sell to influence the price of an investment as to manipulate it around key technical areas. (edit - obviously i dont mean individuals when I say people, but money managers)

Thus, I don't really think this crap is ban worthy as wrong or annoying it may be. If you draw your pricing information from one time period, in one district of one town, maybe that is akin to getting ripped off any other way, due to some extent of gullibility.

edit 2 - This is one of the reasons why I hope GW2 will have a much more robust economic tools like EVE online.

Hooper287 · Nov 03, 2010, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Children, that's not called a scam. #1 is called someone that just happens to be selling for cheaper than what people are buying, and if it's no coincidence, then it's called skill at power trading. #2 Is called someone buying cheaper than what the normal price is, either because they don't want to pay that much or they can't afford it. Just because there's something in the trade window you don't like to see doesn't mean it's a scam. Go back to runescape.

makosi · Nov 03, 2010, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Some people happen to be born without a consience or any sense of ethics and can do these practices without feeling that uneasy twinge in their stomachs.

I envy them. Empathy only holds people back.

Voodoo Rage · Nov 03, 2010, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooper287

Children, that's not called a scam. #1 is called someone that just happens to be selling for cheaper than what people are buying, and if it's no coincidence, then it's called skill at power trading. #2 Is called someone buying cheaper than what the normal price is, either because they don't want to pay that much or they can't afford it. Just because there's something in the trade window you don't like to see doesn't mean it's a scam. Go back to runescape.

Before coming across like an ass, read my post again. The people involved were intentionally not opening the trade window and ignoring all communications despite continuing to spam in the trade channel. They are not buying or selling as advertised. The 2nd person always leaves at the exact same time people start squawking about them. It's a definite scam, not "power trading".

As I posted earlier, we should hold the trade channel to a higher standard. People placing fake trade offers in trade just wastes people's time and worst case it facilitates actual scamming. We freak and out and report people for putting a trade offer in all-chat. To me, this seems more egregious.

Nov 02, 2010, 11:11 PM // 23:11	#6
dansamy Chasing Dragons Join Date: May 2005 Location: Lost in La-La Land Guild: LFGuild Profession: Mo/Me	It's not really a scam. It's market manipulation. It's unethical in-game. It's only illegal IRL. (Stock market manipulating - ask Martha.) My husband and brother-in-law used to manipulate the market for Captured Son letters. They both made a huge bundle on it. They simply undercut the market to the point where other letter farmers found the rate of return to be too low to be profitable. Their method of farming the letters, even after the "nerf" still allowed them to accumulate massive numbers of letters so that their rate of return remained quite profitable, even at the lower price point that they set for the letter. (Please don't ask me how. I hate tedious farming and didn't pay one lick of attention to their methods.) __________________ Former Gladiator's Arena Moderator. Retired. Awaiting GW2.

Nov 02, 2010, 10:27 PM // 22:27	#1
Voodoo Rage Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Sacramento, CA Guild: Geezers Profession: R/	Fake trades in GTOB - reportable offense? I've been noticing a lot of people in the Great Temple of Balthazar who are spamming to buy or sell Ectos or Z-keys at a very good price but then when you open a trade window with them they either ignore you or just close it. They also ignore all PM's despite continuously spamming in the trade window. Typically you will see a pattern of: Guy #1: WTB Z-keys - 6k each Guy #1: WTB Z-keys - 6k each Guy #1: WTB Z-keys - 6k each Guy #2: WTS Z-keys - 5.5k each or vice versa with ecto They will also do the opposite (trying to drive DOWN the price of an item they want to buy): Guy #1: WTS Ecto - 6k each Guy #1: WTS Ecto - 6k each Guy #1: WTS Ecto - 6k each Guy #2: WTB Ecto - 6.2k each It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that they are attempting to confuse potential buys or sellers as to the actual going price of the ecto or z-key. To me, this is something that we should be reporting. Firstly, it's spamming. Clogging the trade channel up with fake trade offers, just drowns out people who are actually trying to buy or sell. Secondly, it's a type of scamming. Utilizing the trade channel to spread misinformation is just a means to attempt to rip someone off. I think it is important in that game that we hold the trade channel to a very high standard. If post a WTB or WTS in the trade channel, you should ACTUALLY BE BUYING OR SELLING not trying to manipulate a price or just get a price check. Has anyone else noticed this? Do you think it is something that should be addressed?

Nov 02, 2010, 10:30 PM // 22:30	#2
End Forge Runner Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Rubbing Potassium on water fountains. Guild: LF guild that teaches MTSC (did it long ago before gw2 came out and I quit...but I barely remember) Profession: N/A	most common scam in gw history But yeah theres really nothing you can do about it...I mean you can report it...but odds are anet won't do anything about it. Although reminds me of an interesting varient awhile back...of I was selling something...I wanna say it was a high req emerald blade. He had one account spamming WTB Greater Guardian Spear r9 gold 250e (I think that was the item it was a greater something or other). Then his other account pm's me offering his r9 gold greater guardian spear for my emerald blade saying I could trade it to the gent for an easy stack. Last edited by End; Nov 02, 2010 at 10:33 PM // 22:33..

Nov 02, 2010, 10:38 PM // 22:38	#3
novawhiz Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2006 Profession: A/	Theres no such thing as being banned for spamming WTS something you dont have. And theres no way to prove that they are working together. And if you buy a Crystal Snowflake for 20e hoping to sell it to someone else for 40e and make a huge profit, but find out its worthless who you going to QQ to? But know anet, they Ban first, find a reason later, so go for it

Nov 02, 2010, 10:38 PM // 22:38	#4
Fay Vert Desert Nomad Join Date: Apr 2006 Profession: R/	Yes it's a scam but I am sure ANet's stance will be that there are bigger problems to spend time on and it's up to the indvidual to know what they are selling/buying. If you can't be bothered to know the price of something in a wider context then you will lose out a little (not a lot). As for keeping the trade chat clear... Well, first we need a decent trade system, but seeing as we don't have one, who cares?

Nov 02, 2010, 11:02 PM // 23:02	#5
Meridon Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Dec 2008 Guild: Funny Business Inc [FBI]	Attempting to manipulate a good with a very dynamic market price is hard to ban for. For example, ecto have once been at 6k, so selling them (or even pretending to do so without direct consequence) at that price can't really be illegal. The thing is, what you are doing goes more towards manipulating the market than scamming. If, by posting enough demand or supply messages for a certain price, you actually get the market to be at that price, you aren't actually scamming the other party. There is one notable exception to this, and that is when there is a team of two scammers in the same district. One pretending to buy a worthless item (like a green weapon nobody has that's worth 1k) for 50e, and another trying to sell the same item for 10k or so. Someone might just be tempted enough to buy this worthless item for far more than it's worth, only to find the person he wanted to sell it to for a profit missing.

Nov 03, 2010, 12:13 AM // 00:13	#7
Horace Slughorn Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Oct 2008 Guild: Experientia Docet [OHX], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA], We Gat Dis [HRUU] Profession: W/	if you don't know the actual price of an item, you really shouldn't be buying or selling it. so if you fall for one of these scams, it's really your own fault.

Nov 03, 2010, 12:14 AM // 00:14	#8
Reformed Jungle Guide Join Date: Aug 2009	Happens all the time in Kamadan with higher ticket items. Best way to avoid this is to know the market inside and out and if its blatant call them out on their bullshit. Don't ever buy an item in the channel just because you see a profitable WTB somewhere further down...these people aren't blind, they know it's there.

Nov 03, 2010, 01:28 AM // 01:28	#9
byteme! Forge Runner Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: On Earth Profession: W/P	In a player driven market you can't do squat about it.

Nov 03, 2010, 01:28 AM // 01:28	#10
Chrisworld Krytan Explorer Join Date: Aug 2010 Guild: Gameamp Guides [AMP] Profession: W/	Yeah it's an old scam... but when you are in ANY town at ANY time who's to say that when this happens it just so happens to be two people not working together? You can't just blanket ban people who...... oh, wait.

Nov 03, 2010, 01:49 AM // 01:49	#11
gremlin Furnace Stoker Join Date: Oct 2006 Guild: GWAR Profession: Me/Mo	There is a saying quite an old one Let the Buyer Beware. In the game just as in real life you shouldn't buy or sell anything without knowing its true value. The game has done its bit to prevent fraud you get messages if someone tries to substitute one item for another the rest is up to us. I guess people who do see this going on could start spamming the true price or warning people but that's just more spam and we need less.

Nov 03, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40	#12
ACWhammy Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Texas Guild: Gold Trim Guild [gtg] Profession: R/	I agree that there are lots of fake advertisers out there. And I agree that it is annoying as well. However I don't consider it scamming and I don't think it's considered a ban-able offense by anet standards and don't think it should be either. The real scammers are the ones that should be cracked down on and reported. Fake ads are annoying but scamming is worse. (i.e. someone trying to buy 13 ectos for 100k then putting 100g in trade window, or trying to sell and EL tonic then putting a regular tonic in trade window - those examples are considered scamming to me - but it's still up to the buyer/seller to check their items before hitting "accept") I agree with Horace and gremlin - before buying anything do some research and get a few opinions on the worth of the item. Then figure out if it's worth that much to you; after all, an item is only worth as much as someone would pay for it. Good luck in your buying and selling, AC

Nov 03, 2010, 02:05 PM // 14:05	#14
Hooper287 Academy Page Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Guild: I Yam What I Yam Profession: W/	Children, that's not called a scam. #1 is called someone that just happens to be selling for cheaper than what people are buying, and if it's no coincidence, then it's called skill at power trading. #2 Is called someone buying cheaper than what the normal price is, either because they don't want to pay that much or they can't afford it. Just because there's something in the trade window you don't like to see doesn't mean it's a scam. Go back to runescape.

Nov 03, 2010, 02:25 PM // 14:25	#15
makosi Grotto Attendant Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: "Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff. Guild: Requirement Begins With R [notQ] Profession: Me/	Some people happen to be born without a consience or any sense of ethics and can do these practices without feeling that uneasy twinge in their stomachs. I envy them. Empathy only holds people back.